by PSF
So long, Manny….
….we’ll miss you in more ways than one.
I suppose I could come around in a week or two (or more), but right now, I am not a fan of what happened yesterday. On some level I understand that the Sox felt like they had to trade Manny…but the main reason I’m not a fan of what happened is because the Sox did not improve yesterday. Seems to me that they got a little bit worse.
They did not address the most glaring need (middle relief; unless you consider they helped it by removing Hansen), and they made the offense a little bit weaker. I realize Bay is a decent hitter; but he ain’t Manny.
Personally, I think the Sox should have gone to Manny last night and said “Look; we tried to trade you, and it only would have hurt the club. Play your ass off for your next free agent contract, and we won’t pick up your option.”
I still blame the majority of this on Boras.
If the rest of the team was actually getting tired of this, and felt like they didn’t need the distraction any more…then I guess maybe this could end up being a good thing. But today, on the day after….I still need some convincing.
Let me place my anger at Manny? 7-1/2 years of bashing baseballs, 2 WS titles, a presence that helped Ortiz become a monster. . .You should be ashamed of yourself, ashamed that you follow a team with an attitude that you show zero appreciation for players who helped a franchise come out of an 86-year drought of failure. I’ve had it with you, clown boy. I’m waiting for your rants on Varitek, I mean you have to be consistent. He’s been horrendous, but you don’t say a word about him. Isn’t this a business? Time for him to be jetisoned. No? Oh, I see, double standards for different athletes.
Correction Vero,
You were not “mistreated”….you were tested….besides, I’ve always thought the female thing was an act…..not that it matters.
Rich and Cater are not one in the same…Cater actually does live on the west coast. Both Rich and Cater are true baseball junkies and more often than not I agree with them…but not on this one. Dont agree with Chucks either….I take the term “ownership” quite literally…and have no sympathy for anyone who whines about ownership, the “grueling schedule” of a 162 games, etc,……. to be paid oodles to play a little boys game 3 hours a day for 6 months a year. Let em come to Maine And wqork with my family cutting firewood 10 hours a day for 12 months a year, for chump change….then whine. These guys are truly blessed with the best and the most decadent that America has to offer, and yet they cant even play a f’ing game without crying and whining.
Vero,
Please note that the “bad feelings” and “friction” you refer to has never been any less. When the room was full most every day/night, it was really no different. Cater has always striven to be a bit of sandpaper and irritate….it’s part of his MO. He is also quite bright and knows his baseball, and the historical stats…..none of which makes him right when it comes to the current debate. As I noted in an earlier post…he tends to talk with a forked tongue….no one talks in double standards more than Cater…in spite of his rants about others doing the same.
Point is….there is really no true “bad feelings” or friction….just the typical personalities on display. Imagine this group in a bar watching the game together….it would be a blast, no?
On the Schilling thing, he needs to either become a media member fulltime (oh wait, he’s already done that with his blog and website) or quit baseball. I prefer the guy who pitched his ass off in 04. I can do without Mr. Sound Bite. . now. But I will always appreciate him as a ballplayer and respect his courage on the mound. What I don’t respect about him is his inate ability to be a “teammate” when he’s playing (I can’t comment on that, or he tip-toes through subject matter and has nothing to say) and be an analyst when he’s not (now that his career is basically over, it’s ok to “volunteer” his run-ins with Manny and give his 2 cents on everything from Kobe Bryant to GW Bush). He’s not consistent. He also should have had the surgery from a doctor that knew (my feeling all along) then have MANAGEMENT dictate to him a knowingly failing rehab because they were irked by his lack of “volunteering” information on his shoulder. In the end, he wanted the money too, but also in the end management behaved poorly. Another example of management behaving poorly. Oh, oh, I have broken the crab code of conduct: must kiss thy owners/gms ass.
January 22, 2004
Red Sox Management Secrets
Boston Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein, 30 years old, was just honored as the Executive of the Year for Major League Baseball. Epstein was named GM at 28, the youngest in baseball history, and has been instrumental in making Boston competitive with the New York Yankees. Epstein’s success is due partly to his scientific approach to talent, according to Lifestyles magazine. First, he uses statistical analysis to determine a player’s potential. Next, he analyzes the ballplayer’s personality. “Many talented players can undo everything with their behavior,” he says. “I believe a team’s chemistry can’t be overrated.” He also uses recently retired players to help evaluate talent, since they have such a keen eye for what goes on between the base paths.
Crab-
ref the previous post.:
Youve outdone yourself.
herb from the medford/malden line
To post on the forum, one must be logged in. Cater has not logged in tonight. Why not use your real name Rich? The history connection hints that you are Rich. Still, you answered none of my points. I now see why the room is in a comatose state. I doubt that you take the time to read the media reports that you so strongly object to. I have no idea of what it costs PSF to sponsor but it is most certainly money down the toilet. You and your gang have managed to ruin the room, which at one point in time was somewhat decent to come to. The first group to leave were the learned real fans, then the slackers were terminated from chatting, then it got so boring that everyone else left
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THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DONT WANT TO COME TO PSF.COM ANYMORE!
chemistry is overrated. if it meant anything, then the ’07 Sox should never have won. Lugo was horrible except for the RBI, Drew was mostly a missing person until the playoffs, Manny was a “cancer” according to several of you, Schilling was a batting practice pitcher with an idiotic blog, Crisp was a bust, and the setup pen other than Okajima was shaky. take your chemistry and make it crab-stuffed.
From RFCYTB:
I try to deal with the facts as everyone knows them and don’t put too much veracity in an anonymous poster’s baseless innuendo about front office leaks, front office mistakes, front office using the media etc. I realize you must have more inside information about what happened in this sordid affair than the rest of us mere mortals but the reasons why the fandom has turned on your hero are the following:
1. criminal behavior
2. quitting on his teamates again
3. not wanting to honor his contract to the end
4. veterans on the team wanted him gone
If you want to condone and defend this bype of boorish behavior and borderline criminal activity because of your obsessive love of an athlete you are obviously free to do so but it also brings into question your moral values or lack thereof and your objectivity when you post such idiotic accusations in the name of defending any and all actions 24 has perpetrated on his teamates, to us fans and his bosses.
Cater has to = Rich, or else one of them loves the other’s ass. Never have they disagreed on anything. They both have the mistaken theory that the FO is ALWAYS wrong. Are they plain stupid or is it a game that they are playing? I even often question if they are legitimate Red Sox fans at all. To PSF, I am not a Manny hater, none of the multitude of shocked Sox fans are “Manny Haters”, we are just extremely disappointed in him. It’s as if you came home and found yourr wife in bed with someone else. Shame on Manny for giving his fans the finger. How greedy. Why Cater and Rich are apologists for such a complete asshole is beyond my understanding.
You’re most definitely a Manny Hater. And you can’t blanketly say that other fans aren’t. It’s the same hate fest that occurred when Nomar left. I guarantee you this will happen again with yet another Red Sox star in the very near future. It’s part of the Sox fan M.O. Fans want the perfect scenario and it will never be as long as the Sox organization’s approach is to wait until the contract year is over, which often means the Sox won’t negotiate at all, leaving players wondering why.
Someone is lying here. Is it Boras, FO, or Edes? Take your pick. Who do you want to be the liar?
I heard it through three different sources who had direct knowledge of the negotiations,” Edes said. “… we’re talking about Manny, so whether or not he actually had a change of heart I can’t really speak to that but the reality is, and I’m surprised that Scott [Boras] denied it as adamantly as he did, but the reality is they had a conversation, Scott and Theo Epstein, within an hour after the trade was made official, saying ‘look, if you drop the options, Manny will stay and give full effort,’ and Theo basically said that train has left the station men, pack plenty of sun screen, you’re on your way to LA. To me, was it surprising? No, because we’ve seen Manny flip-flop so many times on whether he wanted to be here or not. I think in the end, he may have said, ‘jeeze, this is a lot of uprooting of my family and everything for just two months.
crab // Aug 8, 2008 at 9:58 pm
Leaking stories of a 24-0 vote that Manny had to go?, If true , does it offend you? Why? Oh, you say that it wasn’t true.? Or do you say it was true but shouldn’t have been leaked? Where are you coming from, I don’t understand you? Why do you not want a glimpse of the truth, don’t you wish that you were a fly on the wall in the clubhouse?
Did you get past 3rd grade in school? My post is not that difficult to follow. The question is not whether I was offended, who’s lying, or even whether the deal was a good one. The question is: what motivates the Sox organization to to conduct these petty PR campaigns as the players who brought them championships leave town?
And no, I’ve never had a burning desire to snoop around a locker room. Seems a little stalkerish.
The story that I read was that Theo’s mind was just about made up to trade hin and he went to the clubhouse to solidify his decision by asking the players if they could stand Manny anymore. Nothing sneaky about that.
This thread is pretty amusing…..
Great comments by all on each side of the issue, but now we have become as bad as many of us claim the FO, the media, Manny and Boras are……sniping at each other and a never ending game of “he said/she said”. Let’s keep beating that dead horse a little deader….
Doesn’t really matter which side of the issue any of us are on at this point….what’s done is done. Would the Sox line up be better with an interested Manny?…no question. Are the Sox better off with the current line-up under the circumstances…..probably. Does this situation come down to one person, or one “side”?…hell no. Manny got what he pushed for, but Theo has been trying to unload him for 4 years. I don’t buy into the “poor abused” Manny theory…..the man is a unbelievably rich thanks to the Sox. The Sox and their fans got to witness perhaps the best 3/4 tandem a MLB line-up has ever seen…at least the most formidable that I have ever seen in my 50+ years of watching MLB. Glad I got to see it on a Sox team….but all things must pass.
This was going to happen at some point…..just as others have come and gone in the past…Manny’s time in Boston had come to an end. His exploits and his incredible offensive production will never be forgotten…but he IS NOT more valuable than the team as a whole….and he IS NOT forever irreplaceable. His numbers over the the the past two years show that he IS human and he may be winding down a little…..
Can he be a very productive DH for some team (Yankees?)…sure…but he was never going to be that DH in Boston. Does anyone think that Manny will continue to hit or exceed his career averages over the next 2-3-4 years….doubtful. He has proven to be inconsistent over the past two years……when he is on…when he WANTS to make an impact..he does it in grand style…but at least as often, if not more often, Manny tends to be more interested in his hair, or one of his automobiles, than he is baseball. Baseball is a hobby for Manny, nothing more…he really doesn’t give a shit.
Really….there’s not much to debate regarding Manny’s makeup…the true debate is whether the Sox should of continued to allow Manny to ignore the most basic rules of team play, and continue to swallow Manny’s “Manny being Manny” act…namely being the self centered little boy who can refuse to take any responsibility for his actions or lack of them, and to have absolutely no regard for the other 24 guys in that clubhouse. Yes, sometimes Manny could be very charming and endearing…ie giving the fan in the stands a high 5 when he caught that deep drive against the fence….but more often he was frustrating to his teammates and to the organization.
Just how valuable is a Prima-Donna like Manny?
I guess it remains to be seen….but in the end it is really hard to fault the average fan’s opinion, either way. Clearly there is enough substance to fall on either side of the issue.
None of us should take another’s opinion so seriously that this turns from a debate into personal attacks against each other.
Lighten up…enjoy the ride, take a page from the book of Manny…..after-all, it’s just baseball…it’s just a game.
“Lighten up Francis” is Wally’s approach…last time i checked crab started the personal attacks and chucks was simply responding with his opinion that crab may not have attended past the third grade of elementary school. All I have done is defend Manny, then defend myself and Rich, thrown under an elementary bus (what else?) by the uneducated crab, whose idea of a good time is cut and paste and not credit the right writer or the right paper. Hardly what I would call sniping back and forth. And Wally, thanks for your opinion and come back to chat real soon.
I agree with 100% of Waldo said in the above post, everything was very well stated. You also said things about Manny that Cater most probably disliked very much, but he held his tongue, or else his sheet of sandpaper was not handy. If I had written that piece, I wonder what the reaction would have been from Cater and Chucks. Afer all, “you’ve got to be either a rube or LL’s bastard child to not be mortified by the classless sniping and whispers of the FO. Leaking stories of clubhouse votes, of post-trade promises to be a model employee, and having Schilling run his mouth off pre- and post-trade – the organization comes off as petty and vindictive”.
However I am at a disadvantage since I don’t live close to the action (Medford or Malden) that would allow me to read between the lines (like Rich does) which would enable me to label as biased the 90% of the stories in the media. I also don’t listen to WEEI for opinions that some think are source material. I have been unable to find any sources like they have to demonize the FO. So I agree with what Waldo said: “Say what you want…the Sox front office did nothing to cause this…..this is all on Manny and Boras.”
But, you know something, what happened in the last few months doesn’t matter anyway. For years the FO and Manny have shown no respect for each other( they got off on the wrong foot ) and things were not going to improve. Blame whomever you wish to on that too. The Manny apologists have their opinions and the other side ( most fans now and the FO) have theirs. The only solution was to trade him and turn the page. It is Joe Torre’s problem now (enabling) and Joe Girardi’s problem (fireworks) next year.
If being uneducated means being ignorant of the sources that Cater and Chucks have and the intuition that Rich has, then I plead guilty. Like Waldo, all that I know is what I read in the newspapers, blogs, and hear on TV. Couldn’t find a transcript of the Bob Lobel WEEI interview.
Lastly, I always enjoyed watching Manny play as much as anyone, I have many fine memories of him that will last for years. Same with Pedro, Nomar, Nixon. And thanks to Henry, Lucchino, Werner, and Theo for the two WS championships and great farm system, scouting, and draft choices. Lots of expenses, it is no surprise that they had an operating loss last year of $17 mil.
on a far less acrimonious note, Sox just acquired Paul Byrd from the Indians……..
Yes indeed, how Byrd ever snuck through waivers, we’ll never know. Theo must have a crew of staff watching that waiver line and of pot of black coffee. I hope that the deal involves no prospect and is cash only. If Byrd can stay hot for six more weeks it will be great. Theo reacted to a temorary crisis on starters. I have little faith in Colon returning, we’ll see.
Boras has lots to do with it. Manny was happy and wasn’t thinking about it. He would have played the season out. Then Boras started bothering him.
I am disappointed in Manny’s behaviour.
He should have told Boras to STFU and see you in the offseason. Instead he let him get to his head.
19-17
Famous last words:
brother calls me at 10-0, phone call ends with me saying “well, I think Zink can actually hang on to this lead.”
. . .*crickets*. . .I’m damn lucky I didn’t see the score from the time I left the chatroom (12-2). . .at least they won the game. I always say that when a team scores a bunch of runs in the 1st inning, invariably the other team claws its way back, but this is just ridiculous. oh well.
On Zink, it’s kind of like old Abe Alvarez, the side hat, Waldo-eyed minor leaguer. You read all these stories and the guy is like a folk hero, then they get rushed into the big leagues and it’s a bust. Zink could make it in the big leagues some day, but how depressing for him to not be able to hold on to a 10-run lead on a team in a pennant race. Anyway you slice it, it was embarrassing for him and the team. Too bad. Also the relievers again proved that the team’s problem is the middle relief. Other than Masterson, who should be starting. Sox should still be looking for a waiver wire reliever.
I’ll take the W good bad or ugly. Sox better address the glaring problem with the middle relievers… Not sure if there is anything available out there… Felt bad for stink I mean Zink. Poor bastid.. but the rest of the clown car was equally suckulent. Nice to see you in chat last night cater even though you and rich have ruined it
I love danny, I always did.
And rich too.
With the Celts down 24 at LA – did I write this already? – I thought about danny and predicted the comeback. No, last night I really thought it was over, but Tito moved pretty slowly; you just hope for that double play ball, but they just hit doubles, no ball to play.
Anyway as Remy said – I will just show the last out in my summary, which is what matters.
But 2008 looks very much like 2007 to me, yanks come back and make PO, but go out in first rd, Sox win a very tough ALCS and then sweep the WS.
Tito will stretch the starters in October and middle relief won’t even be needed.
Joe, stop the bs.
Facts:
Since Aug 1 they are 8-3, still 3 game behind Tampa, but now 5 up on the yanks – they were 1.5 game up at the trading deadline. Lead the WC by 2.5.
Is it necessary to print an article in the Globe about Varitek filing for divorce?? Makes me sick… Maybe it explains some of his woes at the plate, I don’t know, but I think it’s sad . Leave his personal life to him.. Stupid media
He’s a public figure, so they have a right to run a story on it. it’s sad because he has three small children, he filed for it, which makes me wonder if the wife had an affair? Anyway, none of our business, totally agree with botender there. I’m sure it’s not helping him at the plate. Tough season for The Captain. He’ll survive.
On Tek, the day he gives up batting lefty and lowers his bat on his shoulders, will be the day he starts hitting again. He needs to adjust to his slow bat, Yaz did. He needs to watch video of Yaz over the years…Yaz’s bat got lower, and lower, and lower. Adjustments. He needs to make adjustments.
Hey Bo, at least he isn’t leaving his wife for Madonna. JHFC, what a joke the Yankees are. And I love fat Hank crying about injuries. Really, Hank? You have a f*cking $200 million payroll. Deal with it. You complain about all the injuries to the pitching staff, without recognizing that the putrid offense is the reason your team is sh*tting the bed. Besides, what the hell did you expect? Damon is 34, Matsui is 35 and Posada is 36. Now that the Yankees can’t take steriods anymore, they can’t hold up. Melky is a glorified 4th (5th?) outfielder, Cano has no heart, and St. Derek Jeter is finally starting to show his age, too. Don’t get me started on Joe F*cking Girardi and his “I think I’m playing fantasy baseball so let’s change the line-up every day” mentality. What a train wreck this season has been. And when was the last time the Rays lost a game? June? F*ck me. Is it football season yet? GO GIANTS.
Torre, should the Yanks have renewed Posada’s contract? Did the Yanks overpay Damon? Was the four year contact through 2009 too long for Matsui? These are all sood questions for a FO. Or do you think like our Dannycater and think that contracts should be awarded to all players who have performed well as a sign of “respect”. As a fan did you object to those contracts at the time that they made? The Santana trade was held up by Yanks wanting to keep Melky. Too bad.
Yankees did have many, many injuries so I guess the owner is somehat justified in moaning about it. Hasn’t the offense been good for much of the year? Red Sox have a deeper bench than Yanks do so they were covered during injuries to their key players. Not trading Crisp and acquiring Sean Casey were great moves. Farm system provided Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson. Pedroia is much better than Cano.
If the Yank offense is that terrible perhaps that explains why Girardi is substituting and trying to find a winning combination or batting order. Girardi can only make do with what he has. I myself am glad that you won’t be able to buy a hot dog in the “House that Ruth Built” this October. I do need to compliment Yank farm system, they are giving the Pawsox a battle for first place.
P.S. – I logged into chat last night and the only person here during the game was dannycater. He treated me rudely saying; ” If you are Cathy, then my name is Sally”. We discussed Varitek for a few minutes and he pretended to be a batting coach. Don’t the Red Sox have a video room with hours of DVDs that the players study at different speeds, stop action, etc. Is Madigan useless? Does dannycater have a better setup in his house?
Where are the chatters, when I came in here several years ago they were an interesting group and numerous, and always speaking baseball. Well not all of them, MBF was always talking shit. So where did everyone go to?
I apologize unreservedly to Cathy for what she perceives as “rude.” With that said, I had a polite chat with her in which I explained Tek’s troubles as a hitter. I carried a short conversation, which I believe to be quite polite. I’m now disappointed that Cathy sees fit to throw me under a bus for no reason. Could Cathy be Crab’s alter ego? ummmmmmmmm
Good Lord, must I defend my family of chatters? Cathy, I don’t know you, haven’t chatted with you.. I’m not going to dog you for that, you have coherent baseball minded things to say.. on that note, cater is cater, he is passionate about his beliefs as far as the sox go, I HATED him (sorry cater) at first but then warmed up to him He is speaking his mind he is passionate and knowledgeable about the sox We have gotten to be a bit of a family of sorts here so hell, we are always rude to each other, you gotta have a sense of humor and thick skin.. Mbf is a classic, he is highly entertaining, dont take it seriously.. Rich, Chucks Psf Fan , waldo We survived on the comedy and BS in this room when we were starving for a world series championship. Enjoy the ride
Botender, that was the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me on a forum. I’m all misty-eyed.
. . .*family*………( . ) ( . ). . .thank you
I’m all choked up…I’m gonna give Fan a call and see if he’ll have a beer or 10 with me tomorrow…been too long since I’ve seen him.