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So long, Manny….

August 1, 2008 in Uncategorized

….we’ll miss you in more ways than one.

I suppose I could come around in a week or two (or more), but right now, I am not a fan of what happened yesterday.  On some level I understand that the Sox felt like they had to trade Manny…but the main reason I’m not a fan of what happened is because the Sox did not improve yesterday.  Seems to me that they got a little bit worse.

They did not address the most glaring need (middle relief; unless you consider they helped it by removing Hansen), and they made the offense a little bit weaker.  I realize Bay is a decent hitter; but he ain’t Manny.

Personally, I think the Sox should have gone to Manny last night and said “Look; we tried to trade you, and it only would have hurt the club.  Play your ass off for your next free agent contract, and we won’t pick up your option.”

I still blame the majority of this on Boras.

If the rest of the team was actually getting tired of this, and felt like they didn’t need the distraction any more…then I guess maybe this could end up being a good thing.  But today, on the day after….I still need some convincing.

85 responses to So long, Manny….

  1. Well put, PSF. Feels very much like a step back, but perhaps this is a case of addition by subtraction. My thing is that subtracting someone that can mash like he can could invariably affect Ortiz, Drew, Lowell, etc. as they remove a MAJOR threat in the middle of the lineup.

    As I look back on the pratfalls of Manny, I happened to see the one where he fell “on” the ball, and that seemed (in slow motion) that he absolutely did that on purpose to further speed his exit. I won’t miss those antics, but I will miss his carefree/whimsical attitude in the dugout (when he felt like he wanted to be here). And I will definitely miss his ability to change a game with one swing.

    I did hear someone mention that by freeing up the money, they would make a run at CC in the offseason. I don’t know if I agree, but that put a little ray of sunshine on an otherwise dismal trading deadline.

  2. What concluded yesterday was a red headed stepchild of the sox heil hitler refusal to reup contracts until they damn well please.

    In another world, manny was happy yesterday, renogotiated here, extended here, whatever, and getting ready to turn ballgames for the rest of the year.

    Lets examine the word ‘management’, briefly.
    MANAGE!

    Which the sox, all to often, dont do. So they ended up paying heavily for a mistaken situation which they bore.

    Im disgusted.

  3. Eric Wilbur: In a perfect world, the Red Sox will go on to win another title, doing it this time without their hurtful slugger. Ideally, Manny will go to market in the fall only to discover nobody willing to give him the money he thought was owed to him, much like Nomar did after an unimpressive half-season with the Cubs. Garciaparra, remember, once turned down a $60 million deal. He’s earned half that number since departing Boston.
    Oh, the irony if nobody is willing to give Ramirez anything more than what the Red Sox held in contract options.

  4. Crab is like 90 percent of Sox fans, he cites and copies every blogger as the gospel, cutting and pasting to justify things because well the bloggers are all MLB experts who know everything about the game of baseball…HERE, CRAB, GO TO ESPN AND READ THE OMBUDSMAN, SHE RIPPED ESPN’S BLOGGERS TO PIECES FOR INACCURATE, PATHETIC REPORTING TACTICS, RUMORS TURNED INTO FACTS…WILBUR HAS NO JOURNALISTIC BACKGROUND EXCEPT HIS JOB IS TO DRAMATIZE EVERY WAKING MOMENT OF SOX BASEBALL…WHICH MANNY HELPED HIM DO GREATLY. . .NOW BACK TO MANNY…He already said this not about the money (and frankly he won’t get 4 years for 100 million, but he might get 80 mil for 4 years, which is 60 mil more than the Red Sox were willing to give him, and oh yeah, the team that offers him that WILL BE GIVING HIM WHAT HE WANTED IN THE FIRST PLACE–A LONG TERM CONTRACT TO END HIS CAREER, BUT YOU SEE, THE SOX ARE A BUSINESS, AND BUSINESSES DON’T TAKE CARE OF THE PEOPLE THAT HELP YOUR HOME TEAM WIN AND WIN AND WIN SOME MORE…THEY WAIT UNTIL AGE TAKES OVER THE ARGUMENT…SO EVERYONE RIP NOMAR ABOUT THE 4-YEAR, 60 MIL, BUT AT THE TIME HE WAS ASKING FOR MORE, MANNY HAD SIGNED FOR 160 MIL FOR 8 YEARS AND AROD HAD HIS RECORD CONTRACT, IT WAS NOT OUT OF THE REALM AT THAT TIME FOR HIM TO THINK HE WAS WORTH MORE THAN 4 YEARS FOR 60 MIL, BUT THAT WAS AT THAT TIME. . .Manny is a freak of nature, all I hear about is his decline as a player and all I see are pretty damn good offensive numbers with still 2 months to go in the season to improve to his averages in the big leagues..except Manny’s averages are consistently outstanding and he is still in good shape as a ball player. . .Molitor was almost a better hitter over his last final years than he was in his prime.. Manny is that type of player. . .The Sox don’t and won’t ever sign veteran players to long-term contracts, it’s not good business, but sometimes you do it for the good of the franchise and to make certain people happy so they will continue to hit and hit and hit or pitch and pitch and pitch…Lowell was signed to a rare contract, why shouldn’t Manny expect the same, or Pedro at the time he wanted something. . .It’s not like they didn’t put up great numbers WHILE BEING RED SOX….it’s all about production. Manny is unique because he is apparently a league-changer, not just a game changer. I’ve never seen so many people congratulate themselves on Manny’s removal from Boston because many actual MLB experts are correctly believing that it marks the change of power in the AL. It has, and the Sox lineup is no longer a fear to anyone. And that’s why this trade was detrimental to Sox, not helpful.

  5. Rich is right. Think about going back to even Carlton Fisk, had the team ever just come to some of their superstars and worked out contracts prior to the END OF THEM, most of these media headaches would never happen. But that requires some forethought. Oh yeah, the Sox are made of money, trust me on that. They have more to burn, they had no problem dumping Renteria, they will not bat an eye to pay off Lugo, THEY HAVE TONS OF MONEY. They choose to want to save it or spend it on guys with the potential in their pontential years…It’s all based on projections, nothing more.

  6. I bet the Sox would have saved money on Mike Lowell had they just did a little soul-searching and figured this guy was on a career upswing. But no, they kept thinking about those age projections, then when it was time to go free agent, Lowell got a sweet contract because the talent pool at his position was bare. I hope the Sox figure this out about Papelbon and about Pedroia because I guarantee you they will be hard to sign when their CONTRACTS END…..END…END AND THE SOX MANAGEMENT SITS ON ITS COLLECTIVE ASSES…ASSES..ASSES

  7. I think about all the money spent at just one position–shortstop for Boston…How they kept going after guys due to projections and not remember that Boston is not an easy town to perform in…another thing that Manny did above most others, not allow the town to eat him up as a hitter. . . Cabrera helped the team win the WS, but he didn’t fit the team’s projections. . .Renteria and Lugo were non-Sox who fit the projection profile, but the Sox learned you can become mush in a hurry if you don’t perform on a high level here. The pressure is always on. Factors not taken into account by the Sox. It took JD Drew a whole season to adjust to playing here, but he’s still a guy who is as likely to sit out 2 weeks due to a strain of the left quadri-finger than anyone.

  8. MLB former pitcher Mark Gubicza on Manny v Jason Bay: “I’d rather face Bay because I no longer have to worry about the combo of Ortiz-Manny. You have to have game-plans for that combo, now you can just pitch.”….I’m not ripping Bay, I hope he has a great career in Boston, I think he will be a 25-30 homer hitter, but not with a lot of average and with a ton of K’s, so he’s already better than most of the sox lineup. But again, this not about Bay and it’s unfair to Bay to compare him to Manny, like some of those BLOGGERS really think they are on the same plane…it’s ridiculous

  9. The Sox don’t and won’t ever sign veteran players to long-term contracts, it’s not good business, but sometimes you do it for the good of the franchise and to make certain people happy so they will continue to hit and hit and hit or pitch and pitch and pitch

    I’vr read this 12 times now and it still makes no sense to me.
    Doesn’t good business=good of the franchise
    make certain people happy? By overpaying them?
    Then the overpayed will hit, hit, hit.
    Is this Manny speak?

  10. Rich in the chatroom said that “Enough is Enough” and that Manny has to go. Is the above Rich the same Rich?

  11. Lowell was offered more $$$ to go elsewhere and chose to stay. What happened in the Fisk situation was a bonehead, clerical mistake in the Sox front office involving sending out mail a day too late. That mistake allowed Fisk to try free agency.

  12. Much of the commentary thus far has been along the lines of, “the Red Sox are a worse team today than they were yesterday. That’s true if you assume Manny’s in the game. As Peter Gammons pointed out recently, he’s shown a tendency to ask for some time off when the Sox are facing particularly tough pitchers: this year he’s sat against Verlander, Duchscherer, King Felix (twice), and Joba (twice). Against those four pitchers he’s 3/20 with 7 Ks and no extra-base hits. Are those figures inaccurate?

  13. General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team’s dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go. Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn’t be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn’t engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team’s playoff push.
    They already had threatened him with an unpaid suspension, but in a world in which the union fights for those who don’t work, the last two months were going to be a living hell of sit-down strikes, followed by suspensions. It would have been a half-season of what the past two weeks have been, namely a choke hold on the team’s baseball culture.
    Ramirez tried to sit, citing his knee. Problem is, after Felix Hernandez and Joba Chamberlain had come and gone, the Red Sox ownership and medical staff ordered him to take an MRI. If Ramirez hadn’t forgotten which knee was bothering him, he would have been more convincing, but he got mixed up. Massachusetts General Hospital performed MRIs on both knees and found nothing, and the next day, ownership served Ramirez with a written notice that if he did not play, he would be suspended without pay.
    There was always something uneasy about the love and adoration that Red Sox fans showered on Ramirez. The hard-hitting half-wit was born with the ability to put a bat on ball better than most mortals, but that’s where his virtues end. He doesn’t play the game right. Too often he doesn’t play the game hard. He cares about his contract and his hair and not much else.
    He didn’t care about the wounded troops at Walter Reed Army Medical Center this past February. When most of his teammates, including all of the big stars, made the trip to Washington, he stayed behind. Probably no one on the team had the ability to make a down-on-his-luck Sox fan smile like Manny Ramirez did, but as usual, Ramirez couldn’t be bothered. As usual, teammates, fans and media made excuses for him. Again, the great hitter was allowed to be a rotten human being.
    Make no mistake, Ramirez wore out his welcome here, and in some ways it is a miracle that the breakup took this long. Ramirez had lost virtually all support in the Boston clubhouse by the conclusion of Wednesday’s unsightly 9-2 loss to the Los Angeles Angels, after which just about anyone in a Sox uniform seemed prepared to toss Ramirez from the right field roof deck.
    Said one Sox player when asked about such a level of frustration with Ramirez: “We’re way past that.”
    And then this: “He just doesn’t care.”
    the Jack McCormick incident was the beginning of the end of Manny in Boston:
    “That was it for Manny in terms of 2009 and beyond,” said a source with ties to the Red Sox. “If there was any chance of him returning after this season, it ended there. (Ownership) had had enough.”
    But there was no suspension, which surprised several players.
    According to one player, Ramirez’s incident with McCormick crossed the line.
    “Jack is the nicest guy you’d ever meet,” said a Sox player who requested anonymity. “A lot of guys on this team were ticked about that.”
    As for notion of trading Ramirez, in 2008, that occurred when the Yankees came to Boston last week and he said his knee was too sore to play.
    “When you quit on your team, that’s the worst thing you can do,” said the Red Sox player. “He had to go after that.”
    In general, however, you didn’t sense celebration in the Yankees’ corner as much as you inferred suspicion. A hesitancy to get too excited, fueled by respect for the people who run the historic rivals.
    “They’re pretty smart up there,” one Yankees sympathizer said, after news broke that Manny was a Dodger and Jason Bay had joined the Red Sox as part of a three-team deal. “They know what they’re doing.”

  14. Dear crab-

    Yes its the same rich. enough is enough was being facetious.

    Yes Manny had to go, but in particular a point was reached where Manny had to go, imsho. Thats where my complaint is- the sox allowed that point to be reached due to their fuking inflexible 19th century railroad baron/ Georgia slave owner/ oil magnate all around fascist policy on extending contracts.

    Thats what my aarnk is- the sox let that point be reached by their seig heil contract policy.

    So they did that, and got rooked out of 1 of historys greatest hitters. Im sick of their meter maid policy on contracts, where they pay more in the end, due to disgruntlement- righteous or not.

    This thing has legs you know- what if the sox cant sign bay for 2010. Then we have-

    Manny, Moss, Hansen, 7 mil for manny, more mils for Bay- for a (part) 2008, 2009 lesser player.

    AHAHAHAHHAHAHAHAH!

    MALO!!!

    Reptile and Theo make mils for PREVENTING those situations from happening. Which they didnt, as has happened before.

    Respectfully,
    herb from Malden

  15. In part agreement. They did extend Beckett and Crisp, signed Drew long term, 4 yrs was alot for Tek, Wakefield has an ongoing extension of sorts.Manny apparently didn’t like the idea of options (which he did like when he signed his contract). Time will tell on whether Manny will perform at the $20 mil. level for four more years. Pedro didn’t, Nomar didn’t, Damon is often injured. When teams get burned on long term contacts (remember Pavano) they become hesitant to repeat mistakes. Too bad that more players will play for less (Lowell) or a year at a time (Wakefield).
    Now that is my response from a financial viewpoint. It appears to me that management has been sick of Manny’s attitude for a long time, and because of that they had no intention of paying the option year. It can be debated by some that management was at fault but the majority of baseball people and players know that Manny brought this on himself. That said, it makes the contract extension problem irrelevant.
    On the other side of the coin, isn’t it too bad that you sign someone long term (Lugo) and he is a huge disappointment and you can’t reduce his compensation. The almighty contract, “Thou cannot redo a contract”. So what Manny was doing was to renogtiate or break / terminate his contract. And he succeeded by forcing a trade and having his last two year obligation torn up. Everyone following and respecting their signed contracts is why the Union and management have lawyers. Manny had to go because he became insubordinate.

  16. Bay will be extended, I am sure. From everything I hear he is a class act, a gentlemen, a team person, – another Sean Casey type. Managent has a policy (with few exceptions) that it won’t talk contract during the season. Nomar tried to, didn’t like 60 mil. for 4 yrs, poted, did a sit-down strike and got traded. Manny did the same and got traded. The season is supposed to be about the game on the field and nothing else. If Ponson keeps winning, he may want to start talking contract and I’d love to see him get released for being a malcontent/ toublemaker (which he already is).

  17. Wnen the smoke clears, IT BOILS DOWN TO THIS. Boras contacted Manny and said that NOW is the time to go for a long term contract, and the Red Sox have you under their thumb with two $20 mil. option years. He went on to say – let’s go after a $100 mil for 4 yr. contact ( or to satisfy Cater $80), this way if you suck next year , the fukin owner will still be on the hook for all 4 yrs, you win, the owner gets screwed. But the way it is now, if you stink next year, you only have the $20 mil. and are out of your yacht the next year. So Boras said, since the Sox have you by the balls, you must force a trade, fake injuries, skip important games, insult management, arrive late, make bonehead plays, do everything in your Manny being Manny repertoire, ask for too many tickets and knock the old fart to the floor, just be a no good man-child prick. After awhile you will piss off Henry and Theo so much that they will pull their options and trade you at all costs. Then we will get you that fat contract. Remember Manny, its you and me together against those fat cat owners. The fans, screw them, let them boo you, they are stupid people who spend their precious money to watch little Manny boys play a game with a ball. Assholes.

  18. Jason Bay triple in 12th, Lowrie gets him home,

  19. Weird night in terms of the Red Sox Gods:

    Bay triples, scores winning run in a game that the winning pitcher was Mike Timlin and the losing pitcher was Alan Embree…Timbree with Wakefield, the longtime teammate of Manny’s, throwing almost 7 inn of shutout ball…

    Tony Clark homers to help Arizona beat Dodgers, 2-1, in a game where Manny was 2-for-4, but hit into a double play in the 9th v. . . .Brandon Lyon, another former Sox, who then got the save

    Jeff Suppan throws 7 shutout innings in a win for Milwaukee. In that game, Gabe Kapler, famed Dirt Dog, hit a pinch hit single.

    Pedro throws 5 inn for the Mets in a game that is decided by a pinch hit grand slam by former Sox
    Mark Loretta for Houston.

    Kevin Millar goes 2-for-4 and Jay Payton 3-for-5 in a Baltimore win over Seattle.

    Doug Man-kay-vitch and Brandon Moss combined to turn a 9-3 double play as the Pirates surprised the hot Cubs, 3-0.

    Former Sox farmhand David Murphy has 4 hits including a GW 2-RBI single for Texas in a walkoff win over Toronto.

    The Red Sox gods were playing mind games yesterday. Too strange.

    Congrats to Bay for a great debut, nice diving catch in left too.

  20. Manny is honoring my dedication; he chose the same number I wear in softball.

  21. The Providence Journal reported that Epstein met with team veterans on Wednesday, who urged the general manager to trade Ramirez, and WCVB-TV’s Web site said in an informal poll of his 24 teammates, 23 supported a trade with only David Ortiz abstaining.

  22. General manager Theo Epstein was working with a mandate from within his own clubhouse. After his team’s dispiriting loss to the Los Angeles Angels of Anaheim on Wednesday night, Epstein met with a handful of Red Sox veterans, all of whom delivered the same message: Manny had to go. Worse, the players feared that if Ramirez remained with the Sox for the rest of the season, he couldn’t be counted upon in the middle of a pennant race. In their minds, there were no guarantees that Ramirez wouldn’t engage in further petulant displays that could sidetrack the team’s playoff push. In the past, teammates had advised against just such a deal, reminding management that, whatever his faults, Ramirez’s skills as a run producer were too valuable. But in the last week or so, Ramirez lost the clubhouse and the equation was turned on its head: No matter how good he was as a hitter, it wasn’t enough to outweigh the negatives. Teammates were tired of answering questions about him, tired of rationalizing his selfish behavior, and frankly, tired of him. Armed with that knowledge, Epstein set out to make a trade — any trade.

    Boras said Ramirez called him last winter and asked to hire him. Boras said he had to explain the structure of Ramirez’s contract, in which the Red Sox held options for the 2009 and 2010 seasons, at $20 million apiece.”He said, ‘How did I get in that situation?’ ” Boras said.

  23. I didn’t know the players ran the Sox clubhouse, I was always thought it was the Sox organization. I can’t wait until all teams vote other players off islands. If the sox really allow the players dictate things, then they should SIGN THEM IN THE OFF SEASON PRIOR TO THEIR CONTRACT END YEARS SO THEY DON’T ALLOW THESE poor negotiating tactics that only work to send their star players out of town. Or at least tell the players, “we’re not going to re-sign you, we’ll make every effort to trade you, or don’t expect us to do anything and that will give you some peace of mind.”
    That’s not what the Sox organization does/says. It frequently gives players the impression they are wanted and needed. Manny was on 2 WS title teams, it was this deep into the season and they didn’t pick up his 2009 option….WHY, WHY, WHY….how hard would it have been to say yes or no to it??? No, they waited and waited and made Manny nervous. If the Sox didn’t want Manny, they couldn’t have told him that prior to the all-star break?

  24. NY Times:Ramírez did his best to distance himself from the image of the half-hearted malcontent that he’d recently cultivated in Boston. He even legged out a single for one of his hits, beating Johnson to first.

    Don’t pull a hammy, Manny.
    With Duchscherer pitching last night at Fenway, even if we had Manny on team, he would have sat out. He did that against him before.
    Did you read the Edes report today, http://www.boston.com/sports/baseball/redsox/extras/extra_bases/

    Please let me stay, I’ll be a good boy for the rest of the season if you drop the option years, please Manny will be good boy”. You’ve got to be kidding me. Scott Boras made that call and said that Manny will behave, sounds like blackmail to me. MLB should be informed about this – sounds illegal to me.

  25. crab; post links, not the entire content of articles.

    That last Edes report lends credence to what I’ve been saying all along…that this whole mess the past few weeks was orchestrated by Boras. Manny is no innocent, as he went along with it….but seems like Boras was definitely behind it.

  26. Bay homers, Manny homers…Bay hustles, Manny now hustles…Hey, whatever works, If Jason Bay can be Carl Yastrzemski for the next 3 months, it will make up for this very poor last couple of weeks of Sox As the World Turns drama, much of it allowed and put on by the organization itself. I’ve always said that you find out true Red Sox by how well they play in those first couple of Sox games. It’s a telling factor as to how much those guys are impact players. And Bay has come through already twice, so that’s great. Maybe the rest of the team is relaxed and ready to play baseball. We’ll see.

  27. The Sox offense has awakened. Nice effort from everyone last night. The Youk power stroke is starting to remind me of Rico Petrocelli’s. Jason Bay has a short, quick stroke. Lowell playing hurt. Lowrie doing a great job replacing Lugo. Timlin might be regaining his good stuff. Now we need to win on the road and hope that TB goes into another mini-slum like they did before the All Star game. OGRS.

  28. Memorable Manny Moments, thought that you guys might enjoy this from thr Hartford Courant
    http://www.courant.com/services/newspaper/printedition/sports/hc-mannymoments0803.artaug03,0,6415668.story

  29. Hey PSF, we need a new topic, start a new page please.

  30. Well…..

    It’s still too early to tell, BUT….dontcha just love how the Sox are playing since Manny’s evacuation? There must be something to the “team chemistry” mantra that some like to spout. Ellsbury is coming around, Lowrie is making us forget about another problem…namely Lugo, the line-up is grinding down opposing pitchers, our pitching has been very solid….even the pen is improved. Jason Bay has played ALL facets of the game in a manner the Sox or us fans have not seen in left field in some time. He sort of reminds me of a RH hitting Drew. I hope Youks thumb is a short term issue, and I hope Ortiz gets over the trade and starts hitting….he IS getting pitches to hit, he is just missing them.

    I have to believe the Rays will come back to Earth soon…they have alot of games on the road the rest of the season….the Yanks have little chance with Joba on the DL….
    and finally, the Sox, stat-wise, have the best over-all n umbers (runs scored vs. runs allowed, team era/batting average etc) of any team in the AL…even the Angels. I like this team….I like what I have seen overf the past 6 or so games…and you have to admit it does remind us of what happened in 04 when another icon was shipped out of town.

    As I said, aint gonna replace the best RH swing in the game…but this line-up, this defense, this teams ability to run the bases and make the plays may be better now than it has been…..and the “black cloud” hanging over the dugout seems to have been replaced by a bit of sunshine.

    Frankly, I dont give a rats ass what Manny does in La-La land…and I suspect he will be wearing pinstripes next season…I dont really care. He and Boras played their cards, and Theo called their bluff. He did the right thing. So far his track record regarding former icons has been almost perfect. This team is, over-all, better without Manny.

    Say what you want…the Sox front office did nothing to cause this…..this is all on Manny and Boras. If the Sox go on to win another, I’m sure Theo will be vindicated, and Manny?…he wont give a shit either way.

  31. Typical Cater rant…”The Sox dont take care of the players that make them win”……uh…$160,000,000.00……not saying he didnt earn it….but he, or you have no cause to whine about being taken care of.

    Why should the Sox exercise any option before they need to? WhAT WOULD BE THE ADVANTAGE TO THAT?….that is why the option date is in November. The Sox FO DID NOT…repeat after me…DID NOT make a mistake in not exercising Manny’s option early…in fact I’d say…there goes your proof.

    I’d say the other 24 players in that clubhouse deserve to be listened to ….clearly they are in a position to “know” more than us, the media and even the FO. Manny created his own witch-hunt…much like Pedro did.

    Rich, Cater…you talk out of both sides of your mouth…as usual. You can slight someone else for quoting various members of the media, but it is a different story when you do???…please. You have no more or less “inside” information than any of us, and we all rely of the media for that.

    Fact is, other than the sweetest swing by a RH hitter I’ve ever seen, coupled with the ability to hit baseballs better than almost anyone, Manny has little to offer, and alot that leaves a bitter taste in ones mouth….from his self-centered manchild “Manny bein Manny” act, to his refusal to be a team player, to taking part in any community/jimmy fund team organized event…he couldnt be bothered to go to DC and spend time with the troops….while EVERY other member of the team did. The list goes on and on…..Manny is a self centered pain in the ass that happens to hit the snot oujt of the ball. You would have him hold the other 24 players and the entire organization hostage. If you think he is that important…so be it…but at least be honest enough to recognize why he is no longer here,,,,and dont place the blame on anyone but the man himself.

  32. Excellent comments Waldo. I know, Cater is always telling me that my information is skewed by the media and his information (also from the media) isn’t. Go figure. Cater is badly hurt that his favorite player is gone and his mission / retribution is to blame everyone ( teammates, Theo, management, 95% of the media, and fans) for it. Manny was blameless. Everyone is wrong, Cater is right.

    Cater is not alone, there were many in the chatroom over the years who thought that almost all of the writers, columnists, commentators, and announcers were wrong nearly all of the time. Seems to be a common phobia in chatrooms.

    Regarding Theo’s track record regarding former Red Sox icons, I came upon this post in a Dodger chatroom.

    As for the Boston management “turning” on star players, that is untrue. First, the “turning” on guys like Boggs, Clemens, and Mo Vaughn was a different regime with different people in charge. I don’t think the current management should be held responsible for that.

    As for the current management, were they wrong about Nomar Garciaparra? Were they wrong about Pedro Martinez? I think they hit the nail on the head that neither was worth what the players seemed to think they were worth. Let’s not forget Nomar turned down a 4-year $60 million extension prior to the 2003 season which would have carried him through this season) because he wanted a Jeter/ARod type deal worth $18-20 million per. The market wasn’t there for it and the Red Sox recognized it before Nomar did. He made it clear he wanted to get paid or he wasn’t going to be happy. His agent asked for a trade and the team tried to accomodate with the ill-fated Manny for ARod, Nomar for Magglio Ordonez deals. Nomar took offense to a team simply trying to conduct business and improve themselves. And he quietly turned himself into a malcontent that his teammates eventually wanted out of town.

    With Pedro, he was all about ego and himself. He pouted until they picked up his 2004 option…in spring 2003. A mistake by Theo & company as it turned out given that Pedro turned in the worst healthy season of his career in 2004. He was still good enough to help them win the championship, but he was not a pitcher worth the $17 million they paid him or worth the 4 year/$52 million he eventually got from the Mets. It was believed behind the scenes he was holding back to be sure he stayed healthy for free agency. Hardly the behavior of a pitcher giving his all to the team, so the team shouldn’t be expected to bend over backward to please him.

    Seems to me that these guys expect everyone to kiss their ass. And when they don’t, they’re being disrespected or mis-treated.

    It should be noted that aside from Tim Wakefield and Jason Varitek (two consummate and mature professionals), the last vestiges of the “old” regime in Boston are now gone. Now, every player on the roster is one that was signed or chosen by the current front office. Heck, even Wakefield and Varitek are on contracts they negotiated with the current ownership after 2002. The high profile players that appeared to have falling outs with the management (Nomar, Pedro, Manny) were all on contracts that were not negotiated by the current management. What their biggest disagreement might have been was with the managements negotiation and evaluation methods, which were a far cry from the previous regime of “how much do you want?” The current management actually put a value on the player and was willing to say no to them. Oh, what ogres they are for doing that.

  33. Ref:
    Rich, Cater…you talk out of both sides of your mouth…as usual. You can slight someone else for quoting various members of the media, but it is a different story when you do???…please. You have no more or less “inside” information than any of us, and we all rely of the media for that.

    Actually W my information is better than yours because ive lived all my life far closer to the park than you. I am thus able to ‘tap in’ to red sox nuances that much better. Therefore Im far more equipped to ‘read between the lines’ and ‘connect the dots’ .

    Warm regards,
    rich

  34. Elaborate Rich, why is your information better by you living closer to Fenway? Does that mean that Cater is deprived of that information by living in California, or is Cater from Medford and pretending. Rich, you have more inside information than Theo, Henry, scouts, and the scribes? Tell me how? In between the lines of Shaunessy, Cafardo, and Ryan, you see something that nobody else sees. If you can provide us “better information” please send it to PSF so that he can post it daily on the Forum. It should be a hit. My guess is that Waldo and others are better informed . Is Cater on the Globe forum acting like a kid called Gickchum?

  35. Rich,

    Your are, once again, being “facetious” with your last comments….are you not?

  36. Dear Crab-

    Oftentimes, hidden behind published reports on the red sox are signals and subtleties belying what appears on the surface. Ive found that living near the park and interfacing, on a daily basis, with like minded people lends wise and adroit interpretations to what you guys read in the papers. Most of that is garbage and serves as a front for the Red Sox Money Machine.

    and fwiw, yes you figured it out- Cater is indeed from medford, just a few miles from where I live. He does the California thing as sort of an inside joke- hes indirectly referring to sox fans from thousands of miles away, who really arent true fans. And yeah ive met him a few times in the Square- usually at Dunkin Donuts, where we have a few and some java, and talk about the old days.

  37. Found these interesting statistics just now that show what happens to some of our recents “idols” after they leave Boston. It makes management look good.

    Pedro Martinez
    With Boston WL Record: 117-37 (seven seasons)
    With New York WL Record: 30-19 (four seasons)

    Derek Lowe
    With Boston WL Record: 70-55 (7.5 seasons) Saves: 85
    With L.A. WL Record: 48-46 (four seasons) Saves: 0

    Mo Vaughn
    With Boston: 230 HR’s, 752 RBI, .297 batting avg. (eight seasons)
    After Boston (NYM and ANA): 98 HRs, 312 RBI, .250 batting avg. (four seasons)

    Nomar Garciaparra
    With Boston: 178 HR’s, 690 RBI, .332 batting avg. (8.5 seasons)
    After Boston (CHC and LAD): 45 HRs, 221 RBI, .289 batting avg. (4.5 seasons)

    Now with Manny, he may have two good seasons, but with a four year contract ( if he gets one), history says that at his age the statistics will get worse. Of course, if you are the Yankees, you can afford to squander your revenue but the Red Sox need to keep to a minimum their bad moves.

    Trot Nixon

    With Boston: 133 HR’s, 523 RBI, .281 batting avg. (eight seasons excluding his first two in limited time)

    After Boston: Four HR’s, 32 RBI, .211 batting avg. (two seasons in somewhat limited time)

  38. It does seem that Theo has been ahead of the curve on Nomar, Lowe, Pedro, and Nixon by looking at the before and after data provided by Vero above. He was also right on many other deals. In rereading the posts by Cater and Rich, they have this conception that when contracts are winding down that you should automatically extend them and even give raises because these players were good during their contracts. In other words, they would have extended all of these guys without doing any longevity or historical analysis. They would ignore insight from Bill James and volumes of past baseball data on aging players. In the world of Cater and Rich, and their automatic renewal of contacts, there would be no need for Theo and his staff, just push your contract into a slot to get a renewed contract. Management in their eyes is always the bogeyman because they analyze a player’s future value instead of throwing bushels of $$$ at him for past production. Gee, I was under the impression that these players were already compensated for past production. I mean, after a singer starts losing his / her voice, should a Las Vegas casino hire them for the summer at the old rate based on how good they sing in the past. Somehow I just fail to see the Cater, Rich logic. If Cater and Rich mailed their logic to every MLB front office, their letter would be in the circular files in minutes. P.S. – how we loved Mueller from the 2004 WS team, but they knew he had bad legs and let him go – another correct move as it turned out. Sometimes the mindset that makes one a diehard fanatic and love the players would disqualify you from being a good GM. just because a player helped get you two WS rings is not reason to kiss his ass and give him a 4 year contract when all the stats say at most he’ll be good for two.

  39. Then how come Manny is already a folk hero in Los Angeles if he is indeed not important according to crab and not needed according to Waldo Pepper? I don’t automatically say you give a contract to a guy who performed, but it would be nice if the team would actually consider extensions at a time table other than management’s, which is clearly at the very tail end of the contract when a player is nervous about his future and feels that management is not taking that player seriously. Throwing Manny under a bus for the DC troops thing, but none of you will defend Nomar and his act of fan kindness when he congratulated the fans after a playoff series openly outside the dugout, something few players would ever even imagine doing. Instead you ungrateful fans throw Nomar under a bus constantly, and blame Manny as the team cancer while Varitek batted .200 and Lugo sucked, and Ortiz was hurt, but the Sox were still 15 games above .500. You guys all buy into management. I’m not allowed to say something that would change your minds about a certain Sox owner, but suffice to say that THEY LIE TO THE MEDIA to suit their cases. I’ve already said too much.
    Message to Rich: I’ll meet you at Duncan Donuts for a cup of java in our regular spot, same time as yesterday. I’ll bring the chess board.

  40. I’m the jerk for defending Sox players who have helped the team to win 2 WS titles, so I guess i must be a terrible fan. Let me be like 95 percent of you who simply think it’s all business and go all Bill James on us. Great, then replace Varitek, or is that too precious a subject to touch. I’m sick of the double standards. It was perfectly Ok to give Renteria a 4-year contract worth 30 mil and Lugo a 4-year deal, but it wasn’t ok to give Manny his extension in the off-season after the WS title, which probably would have nixed his behavior this year. It’s ok to 1-year contract Wakefield, but throw the bank to Matt Clement? It was perfectly fine to jetison Cabrera with no offers? They almost lost Lowell due to low-balling him. Wakefield would be on another team if he wasn’t so generous.

  41. If the contract says that management has until Nov. 1 to make up its mind, you don’t want the player to honor that? Is that your point? Manny nervous about his future?, on what $20 mil for 2009, that is bullshit. What concerned Manny is a contract for 4 more years – you have said it yourself on here. He wrongly wanted Sox to throw away the contract that he signed concerning option years and replace it with a 4 yr. comntract. Four more yrs. was not right for Pedro and neither is it for Manny. Lastly, when you wrote this paragraph at 6:30 pm, Cater was not in the room but Rich was, therefore Cater = Rich ftom Malden / Medford whatever. You both have a brain cramp when it comes to logic. You answered none of my questions, my guess is that you didn’t understand them. “Then how come Manny is already a folk hero in Los Angeles if he is indeed not important according to crab and not needed according to Waldo Pepper?” Give me a break, are you sober right now?

  42. I answered all of your questions, and I’m sick of your condescending attitude and your attempts at attacking me and Rich. I’m going to hire a cyber lawyer and have your internet pass terminated. Your mantra that the ownership/gm knows best is your mantra, not mine. I have a right to my opinions and a right to not be a gerbil who follows and gobbles up whatever is written in a blog or seen in a Globe story.

  43. You must fear me and rich for bucking the party line. Thank god, you weren’t around when the Founding Fathers decided to secede from Great Britain’s rule. I’m sure you would have just said, “The King knows what he’s doing. Look at the taxes, they’re working.”

  44. To post on the forum, one must be logged in. Cater has not logged in tonight. Why not use your real name Rich? The history connection hints that you are Rich. Still, you answered none of my points. I now see why the room is in a comatose state. I doubt that you take the time to read the media reports that you so strongly object to. I have no idea of what it costs PSF to sponsor but it is most certainly money down the toilet. You and your gang have managed to ruin the room, which at one point in time was somewhat decent to come to. The first group to leave were the learned real fans, then the slackers were terminated from chatting, then it got so boring that everyone else left. Enjoy talking to yourself.

  45. Regardless of the merits of the deal that banished Manny, you’ve got to be either a rube or LL’s bastard child to not be mortified by the classless sniping and whispers. Leaking stories of clubhouse votes, of post-trade promises to be a model employee, and having Schilling run his mouth off pre- and post-trade – the organization comes off as petty and vindictive. I’m rooting for Brian Giles to come out and say that he’d have agreed to a deal to Boston if it weren’t for the boorishness of the management.

  46. Leaking stories of a 24-0 vote that Manny had to go?, If true , does it offend you? Why? Oh, you say that it wasn’t true.? Or do you say it was true but shouldn’t have been leaked? Where are you coming from, I don’t understand you? Why do you not want a glimpse of the truth, don’t you wish that you were a fly on the wall in the clubhouse? The job or mission of the media is to deliver you the truth. Do you prefer being dunb, blind. and deaf? From your chatroom universe, what facts do you have, please enlighten us on why the media is evil?
    Brian Giles wanted to stay on the West Coast and is getting playing time, don’t read anymore into that. He knew that he would be on the bench with the Red Sox, Sox have four OFs better than him.
    To me it proves that Manny is an idiot to promise that he would be a good boy if they voided his options, that is laughable. To you , you were not concerned by the truth, you were concerned by the leak. Where are your fucking morals? The player Manny was a greedy fuckup, and you blame the media leaks.
    I always admired Schilling , yes he talked a lot, but he was honest. If I invited guests to my house on Thanksgiving, Schilling would be at the head of the table and Manny would be in the outhouse with a roll of toilet paper – not a washcloth which he demanded from the clubhouse attendants. Stop being an apologist for an asshole.

  47. From encinitas-2 :
    Manny demonstrated his commitment to his wallet. He failed to honor his deal, quit on his team, and demanded something he did not deserve: an early answer on whether the FO wanted. Of all the players you may give an early answer to, why Manny? For those who attack the Sox over “leaks”, your anger is misplaced. It should be directed at Manny. Blaming the FO for talking about his behavior (quitting on his team, causing team strife, hitting a senior citizen,etc.)is like blaming the police for arresting the junkie. Manny DID all those things. If you want to blame the FO, blame them for tolerating it for so long.

  48. My, my, never thought that this room would be so entertaining. It seemed to me before that everyone was cut out of the same mold.
    To begin with, when I first entered this room, I was mistreated by Waldo for being a female. How could a female know squat about baseball? Well, anyway we traded barbs at each other for awhile. Then slowly I started respecting his baseball opinions and especially his good sense of humor. He was a nice guy to have around in the chatroom.
    When it comes to Manny, my opinions parallel those of Crab and Waldo.
    I feel obligated each morning to read all of the sources and come to the room prepared, if everyone did likewise I believe that the frictions and bad feelings would be less. Some things do puzzle me however, why would some of you cheer when Youk gets hit on the hand by a pitch, still trying to figure that one out.
    Have a good night, OGRS.

  49. Quite salty language from crab, f-this, f-that…sounds like you are rattled crusty boy. i’m logged in as dannycater through wordpress, i don’t have to be in chat to leave a comment, for the record. Like I said, the room is bare because of complacency over winning 2 WS titles. You really have to be a bloody moron to think either rich or myself had anything to do with the lack of chatters in there. We’re at least there at times to chat instead of leering creeps like yourself, who have nothing to offer but the party line. PSF offers a fine forum, more people should use it. Crab, I offer to you to use it less since you feel myself and Rich are clouding others’ judgments.

  50. Let me place my anger at Manny? 7-1/2 years of bashing baseballs, 2 WS titles, a presence that helped Ortiz become a monster. . .You should be ashamed of yourself, ashamed that you follow a team with an attitude that you show zero appreciation for players who helped a franchise come out of an 86-year drought of failure. I’ve had it with you, clown boy. I’m waiting for your rants on Varitek, I mean you have to be consistent. He’s been horrendous, but you don’t say a word about him. Isn’t this a business? Time for him to be jetisoned. No? Oh, I see, double standards for different athletes.

  51. Correction Vero,

    You were not “mistreated”….you were tested….besides, I’ve always thought the female thing was an act…..not that it matters.

    Rich and Cater are not one in the same…Cater actually does live on the west coast. Both Rich and Cater are true baseball junkies and more often than not I agree with them…but not on this one. Dont agree with Chucks either….I take the term “ownership” quite literally…and have no sympathy for anyone who whines about ownership, the “grueling schedule” of a 162 games, etc,……. to be paid oodles to play a little boys game 3 hours a day for 6 months a year. Let em come to Maine And wqork with my family cutting firewood 10 hours a day for 12 months a year, for chump change….then whine. These guys are truly blessed with the best and the most decadent that America has to offer, and yet they cant even play a f’ing game without crying and whining.

  52. Vero,

    Please note that the “bad feelings” and “friction” you refer to has never been any less. When the room was full most every day/night, it was really no different. Cater has always striven to be a bit of sandpaper and irritate….it’s part of his MO. He is also quite bright and knows his baseball, and the historical stats…..none of which makes him right when it comes to the current debate. As I noted in an earlier post…he tends to talk with a forked tongue….no one talks in double standards more than Cater…in spite of his rants about others doing the same.

    Point is….there is really no true “bad feelings” or friction….just the typical personalities on display. Imagine this group in a bar watching the game together….it would be a blast, no?

  53. On the Schilling thing, he needs to either become a media member fulltime (oh wait, he’s already done that with his blog and website) or quit baseball. I prefer the guy who pitched his ass off in 04. I can do without Mr. Sound Bite. . now. But I will always appreciate him as a ballplayer and respect his courage on the mound. What I don’t respect about him is his inate ability to be a “teammate” when he’s playing (I can’t comment on that, or he tip-toes through subject matter and has nothing to say) and be an analyst when he’s not (now that his career is basically over, it’s ok to “volunteer” his run-ins with Manny and give his 2 cents on everything from Kobe Bryant to GW Bush). He’s not consistent. He also should have had the surgery from a doctor that knew (my feeling all along) then have MANAGEMENT dictate to him a knowingly failing rehab because they were irked by his lack of “volunteering” information on his shoulder. In the end, he wanted the money too, but also in the end management behaved poorly. Another example of management behaving poorly. Oh, oh, I have broken the crab code of conduct: must kiss thy owners/gms ass.

  54. January 22, 2004
    Red Sox Management Secrets
    Boston Red Sox general manager Theo Epstein, 30 years old, was just honored as the Executive of the Year for Major League Baseball. Epstein was named GM at 28, the youngest in baseball history, and has been instrumental in making Boston competitive with the New York Yankees. Epstein’s success is due partly to his scientific approach to talent, according to Lifestyles magazine. First, he uses statistical analysis to determine a player’s potential. Next, he analyzes the ballplayer’s personality. “Many talented players can undo everything with their behavior,” he says. “I believe a team’s chemistry can’t be overrated.” He also uses recently retired players to help evaluate talent, since they have such a keen eye for what goes on between the base paths.

  55. Crab-

    ref the previous post.:

    Youve outdone yourself.

    herb from the medford/malden line

  56. To post on the forum, one must be logged in. Cater has not logged in tonight. Why not use your real name Rich? The history connection hints that you are Rich. Still, you answered none of my points. I now see why the room is in a comatose state. I doubt that you take the time to read the media reports that you so strongly object to. I have no idea of what it costs PSF to sponsor but it is most certainly money down the toilet. You and your gang have managed to ruin the room, which at one point in time was somewhat decent to come to. The first group to leave were the learned real fans, then the slackers were terminated from chatting, then it got so boring that everyone else left
    —————-

    THIS IS WHY PEOPLE DONT WANT TO COME TO PSF.COM ANYMORE!

  57. chemistry is overrated. if it meant anything, then the ’07 Sox should never have won. Lugo was horrible except for the RBI, Drew was mostly a missing person until the playoffs, Manny was a “cancer” according to several of you, Schilling was a batting practice pitcher with an idiotic blog, Crisp was a bust, and the setup pen other than Okajima was shaky. take your chemistry and make it crab-stuffed.

  58. From RFCYTB:
    I try to deal with the facts as everyone knows them and don’t put too much veracity in an anonymous poster’s baseless innuendo about front office leaks, front office mistakes, front office using the media etc. I realize you must have more inside information about what happened in this sordid affair than the rest of us mere mortals but the reasons why the fandom has turned on your hero are the following:

    1. criminal behavior
    2. quitting on his teamates again
    3. not wanting to honor his contract to the end
    4. veterans on the team wanted him gone

    If you want to condone and defend this bype of boorish behavior and borderline criminal activity because of your obsessive love of an athlete you are obviously free to do so but it also brings into question your moral values or lack thereof and your objectivity when you post such idiotic accusations in the name of defending any and all actions 24 has perpetrated on his teamates, to us fans and his bosses.

  59. Cater has to = Rich, or else one of them loves the other’s ass. Never have they disagreed on anything. They both have the mistaken theory that the FO is ALWAYS wrong. Are they plain stupid or is it a game that they are playing? I even often question if they are legitimate Red Sox fans at all. To PSF, I am not a Manny hater, none of the multitude of shocked Sox fans are “Manny Haters”, we are just extremely disappointed in him. It’s as if you came home and found yourr wife in bed with someone else. Shame on Manny for giving his fans the finger. How greedy. Why Cater and Rich are apologists for such a complete asshole is beyond my understanding.

  60. You’re most definitely a Manny Hater. And you can’t blanketly say that other fans aren’t. It’s the same hate fest that occurred when Nomar left. I guarantee you this will happen again with yet another Red Sox star in the very near future. It’s part of the Sox fan M.O. Fans want the perfect scenario and it will never be as long as the Sox organization’s approach is to wait until the contract year is over, which often means the Sox won’t negotiate at all, leaving players wondering why.

  61. Someone is lying here. Is it Boras, FO, or Edes? Take your pick. Who do you want to be the liar?
    I heard it through three different sources who had direct knowledge of the negotiations,” Edes said. “… we’re talking about Manny, so whether or not he actually had a change of heart I can’t really speak to that but the reality is, and I’m surprised that Scott [Boras] denied it as adamantly as he did, but the reality is they had a conversation, Scott and Theo Epstein, within an hour after the trade was made official, saying ‘look, if you drop the options, Manny will stay and give full effort,’ and Theo basically said that train has left the station men, pack plenty of sun screen, you’re on your way to LA. To me, was it surprising? No, because we’ve seen Manny flip-flop so many times on whether he wanted to be here or not. I think in the end, he may have said, ‘jeeze, this is a lot of uprooting of my family and everything for just two months.

  62. crab // Aug 8, 2008 at 9:58 pm

    Leaking stories of a 24-0 vote that Manny had to go?, If true , does it offend you? Why? Oh, you say that it wasn’t true.? Or do you say it was true but shouldn’t have been leaked? Where are you coming from, I don’t understand you? Why do you not want a glimpse of the truth, don’t you wish that you were a fly on the wall in the clubhouse?
    Did you get past 3rd grade in school? My post is not that difficult to follow. The question is not whether I was offended, who’s lying, or even whether the deal was a good one. The question is: what motivates the Sox organization to to conduct these petty PR campaigns as the players who brought them championships leave town?

    And no, I’ve never had a burning desire to snoop around a locker room. Seems a little stalkerish.

  63. The story that I read was that Theo’s mind was just about made up to trade hin and he went to the clubhouse to solidify his decision by asking the players if they could stand Manny anymore. Nothing sneaky about that.

  64. This thread is pretty amusing…..

    Great comments by all on each side of the issue, but now we have become as bad as many of us claim the FO, the media, Manny and Boras are……sniping at each other and a never ending game of “he said/she said”. Let’s keep beating that dead horse a little deader….

    Doesn’t really matter which side of the issue any of us are on at this point….what’s done is done. Would the Sox line up be better with an interested Manny?…no question. Are the Sox better off with the current line-up under the circumstances…..probably. Does this situation come down to one person, or one “side”?…hell no. Manny got what he pushed for, but Theo has been trying to unload him for 4 years. I don’t buy into the “poor abused” Manny theory…..the man is a unbelievably rich thanks to the Sox. The Sox and their fans got to witness perhaps the best 3/4 tandem a MLB line-up has ever seen…at least the most formidable that I have ever seen in my 50+ years of watching MLB. Glad I got to see it on a Sox team….but all things must pass.

    This was going to happen at some point…..just as others have come and gone in the past…Manny’s time in Boston had come to an end. His exploits and his incredible offensive production will never be forgotten…but he IS NOT more valuable than the team as a whole….and he IS NOT forever irreplaceable. His numbers over the the the past two years show that he IS human and he may be winding down a little…..

    Can he be a very productive DH for some team (Yankees?)…sure…but he was never going to be that DH in Boston. Does anyone think that Manny will continue to hit or exceed his career averages over the next 2-3-4 years….doubtful. He has proven to be inconsistent over the past two years……when he is on…when he WANTS to make an impact..he does it in grand style…but at least as often, if not more often, Manny tends to be more interested in his hair, or one of his automobiles, than he is baseball. Baseball is a hobby for Manny, nothing more…he really doesn’t give a shit.

    Really….there’s not much to debate regarding Manny’s makeup…the true debate is whether the Sox should of continued to allow Manny to ignore the most basic rules of team play, and continue to swallow Manny’s “Manny being Manny” act…namely being the self centered little boy who can refuse to take any responsibility for his actions or lack of them, and to have absolutely no regard for the other 24 guys in that clubhouse. Yes, sometimes Manny could be very charming and endearing…ie giving the fan in the stands a high 5 when he caught that deep drive against the fence….but more often he was frustrating to his teammates and to the organization.

    Just how valuable is a Prima-Donna like Manny?

    I guess it remains to be seen….but in the end it is really hard to fault the average fan’s opinion, either way. Clearly there is enough substance to fall on either side of the issue.

    None of us should take another’s opinion so seriously that this turns from a debate into personal attacks against each other.

    Lighten up…enjoy the ride, take a page from the book of Manny…..after-all, it’s just baseball…it’s just a game.

  65. “Lighten up Francis” is Wally’s approach…last time i checked crab started the personal attacks and chucks was simply responding with his opinion that crab may not have attended past the third grade of elementary school. All I have done is defend Manny, then defend myself and Rich, thrown under an elementary bus (what else?) by the uneducated crab, whose idea of a good time is cut and paste and not credit the right writer or the right paper. Hardly what I would call sniping back and forth. And Wally, thanks for your opinion and come back to chat real soon.

  66. I agree with 100% of Waldo said in the above post, everything was very well stated. You also said things about Manny that Cater most probably disliked very much, but he held his tongue, or else his sheet of sandpaper was not handy. If I had written that piece, I wonder what the reaction would have been from Cater and Chucks. Afer all, “you’ve got to be either a rube or LL’s bastard child to not be mortified by the classless sniping and whispers of the FO. Leaking stories of clubhouse votes, of post-trade promises to be a model employee, and having Schilling run his mouth off pre- and post-trade – the organization comes off as petty and vindictive”.

    However I am at a disadvantage since I don’t live close to the action (Medford or Malden) that would allow me to read between the lines (like Rich does) which would enable me to label as biased the 90% of the stories in the media. I also don’t listen to WEEI for opinions that some think are source material. I have been unable to find any sources like they have to demonize the FO. So I agree with what Waldo said: “Say what you want…the Sox front office did nothing to cause this…..this is all on Manny and Boras.”

    But, you know something, what happened in the last few months doesn’t matter anyway. For years the FO and Manny have shown no respect for each other( they got off on the wrong foot ) and things were not going to improve. Blame whomever you wish to on that too. The Manny apologists have their opinions and the other side ( most fans now and the FO) have theirs. The only solution was to trade him and turn the page. It is Joe Torre’s problem now (enabling) and Joe Girardi’s problem (fireworks) next year.

    If being uneducated means being ignorant of the sources that Cater and Chucks have and the intuition that Rich has, then I plead guilty. Like Waldo, all that I know is what I read in the newspapers, blogs, and hear on TV. Couldn’t find a transcript of the Bob Lobel WEEI interview.

    Lastly, I always enjoyed watching Manny play as much as anyone, I have many fine memories of him that will last for years. Same with Pedro, Nomar, Nixon. And thanks to Henry, Lucchino, Werner, and Theo for the two WS championships and great farm system, scouting, and draft choices. Lots of expenses, it is no surprise that they had an operating loss last year of $17 mil.

  67. on a far less acrimonious note, Sox just acquired Paul Byrd from the Indians……..

  68. Yes indeed, how Byrd ever snuck through waivers, we’ll never know. Theo must have a crew of staff watching that waiver line and of pot of black coffee. I hope that the deal involves no prospect and is cash only. If Byrd can stay hot for six more weeks it will be great. Theo reacted to a temorary crisis on starters. I have little faith in Colon returning, we’ll see.

  69. Boras has lots to do with it. Manny was happy and wasn’t thinking about it. He would have played the season out. Then Boras started bothering him.

    I am disappointed in Manny’s behaviour.
    He should have told Boras to STFU and see you in the offseason. Instead he let him get to his head.

    19-17

  70. Famous last words:
    brother calls me at 10-0, phone call ends with me saying “well, I think Zink can actually hang on to this lead.”
    . . .*crickets*. . .I’m damn lucky I didn’t see the score from the time I left the chatroom (12-2). . .at least they won the game. I always say that when a team scores a bunch of runs in the 1st inning, invariably the other team claws its way back, but this is just ridiculous. oh well.

  71. On Zink, it’s kind of like old Abe Alvarez, the side hat, Waldo-eyed minor leaguer. You read all these stories and the guy is like a folk hero, then they get rushed into the big leagues and it’s a bust. Zink could make it in the big leagues some day, but how depressing for him to not be able to hold on to a 10-run lead on a team in a pennant race. Anyway you slice it, it was embarrassing for him and the team. Too bad. Also the relievers again proved that the team’s problem is the middle relief. Other than Masterson, who should be starting. Sox should still be looking for a waiver wire reliever.

  72. I’ll take the W good bad or ugly. Sox better address the glaring problem with the middle relievers… Not sure if there is anything available out there… Felt bad for stink I mean Zink. Poor bastid.. but the rest of the clown car was equally suckulent. Nice to see you in chat last night cater even though you and rich have ruined it ;)

  73. I love danny, I always did.
    And rich too.

    With the Celts down 24 at LA – did I write this already? – I thought about danny and predicted the comeback. No, last night I really thought it was over, but Tito moved pretty slowly; you just hope for that double play ball, but they just hit doubles, no ball to play.
    Anyway as Remy said – I will just show the last out in my summary, which is what matters.

    But 2008 looks very much like 2007 to me, yanks come back and make PO, but go out in first rd, Sox win a very tough ALCS and then sweep the WS.
    Tito will stretch the starters in October and middle relief won’t even be needed.
    Joe, stop the bs.

    Facts:
    Since Aug 1 they are 8-3, still 3 game behind Tampa, but now 5 up on the yanks – they were 1.5 game up at the trading deadline. Lead the WC by 2.5.

  74. Is it necessary to print an article in the Globe about Varitek filing for divorce?? Makes me sick… Maybe it explains some of his woes at the plate, I don’t know, but I think it’s sad . Leave his personal life to him.. Stupid media

  75. He’s a public figure, so they have a right to run a story on it. it’s sad because he has three small children, he filed for it, which makes me wonder if the wife had an affair? Anyway, none of our business, totally agree with botender there. I’m sure it’s not helping him at the plate. Tough season for The Captain. He’ll survive.

  76. On Tek, the day he gives up batting lefty and lowers his bat on his shoulders, will be the day he starts hitting again. He needs to adjust to his slow bat, Yaz did. He needs to watch video of Yaz over the years…Yaz’s bat got lower, and lower, and lower. Adjustments. He needs to make adjustments.

  77. Hey Bo, at least he isn’t leaving his wife for Madonna. JHFC, what a joke the Yankees are. And I love fat Hank crying about injuries. Really, Hank? You have a f*cking $200 million payroll. Deal with it. You complain about all the injuries to the pitching staff, without recognizing that the putrid offense is the reason your team is sh*tting the bed. Besides, what the hell did you expect? Damon is 34, Matsui is 35 and Posada is 36. Now that the Yankees can’t take steriods anymore, they can’t hold up. Melky is a glorified 4th (5th?) outfielder, Cano has no heart, and St. Derek Jeter is finally starting to show his age, too. Don’t get me started on Joe F*cking Girardi and his “I think I’m playing fantasy baseball so let’s change the line-up every day” mentality. What a train wreck this season has been. And when was the last time the Rays lost a game? June? F*ck me. Is it football season yet? GO GIANTS.

  78. Torre, should the Yanks have renewed Posada’s contract? Did the Yanks overpay Damon? Was the four year contact through 2009 too long for Matsui? These are all sood questions for a FO. Or do you think like our Dannycater and think that contracts should be awarded to all players who have performed well as a sign of “respect”. As a fan did you object to those contracts at the time that they made? The Santana trade was held up by Yanks wanting to keep Melky. Too bad.

  79. Yankees did have many, many injuries so I guess the owner is somehat justified in moaning about it. Hasn’t the offense been good for much of the year? Red Sox have a deeper bench than Yanks do so they were covered during injuries to their key players. Not trading Crisp and acquiring Sean Casey were great moves. Farm system provided Ellsbury, Lowrie and Masterson. Pedroia is much better than Cano.

    If the Yank offense is that terrible perhaps that explains why Girardi is substituting and trying to find a winning combination or batting order. Girardi can only make do with what he has. I myself am glad that you won’t be able to buy a hot dog in the “House that Ruth Built” this October. I do need to compliment Yank farm system, they are giving the Pawsox a battle for first place.

  80. P.S. – I logged into chat last night and the only person here during the game was dannycater. He treated me rudely saying; ” If you are Cathy, then my name is Sally”. We discussed Varitek for a few minutes and he pretended to be a batting coach. Don’t the Red Sox have a video room with hours of DVDs that the players study at different speeds, stop action, etc. Is Madigan useless? Does dannycater have a better setup in his house?
    Where are the chatters, when I came in here several years ago they were an interesting group and numerous, and always speaking baseball. Well not all of them, MBF was always talking shit. So where did everyone go to?

  81. I apologize unreservedly to Cathy for what she perceives as “rude.” With that said, I had a polite chat with her in which I explained Tek’s troubles as a hitter. I carried a short conversation, which I believe to be quite polite. I’m now disappointed that Cathy sees fit to throw me under a bus for no reason. Could Cathy be Crab’s alter ego? ummmmmmmmm

  82. Good Lord, must I defend my family of chatters? Cathy, I don’t know you, haven’t chatted with you.. I’m not going to dog you for that, you have coherent baseball minded things to say.. on that note, cater is cater, he is passionate about his beliefs as far as the sox go, I HATED him (sorry cater) at first but then warmed up to him He is speaking his mind he is passionate and knowledgeable about the sox We have gotten to be a bit of a family of sorts here so hell, we are always rude to each other, you gotta have a sense of humor and thick skin.. Mbf is a classic, he is highly entertaining, dont take it seriously.. Rich, Chucks Psf Fan , waldo We survived on the comedy and BS in this room when we were starving for a world series championship. Enjoy the ride

  83. Botender, that was the nicest thing anyone has ever said about me on a forum. I’m all misty-eyed.
    . . .*family*………( . ) ( . ). . .thank you

  84. I’m all choked up…I’m gonna give Fan a call and see if he’ll have a beer or 10 with me tomorrow…been too long since I’ve seen him.

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