by PSF
If you hate Manny, then I hate YOU!
OK, that may be a little strong…but I’m sick of the annual “Get him gone” faction of Red Sox Nation that pops up every July.
I’ve said it before, and I’ll say it again…I don’t care if Manny kicks kittens into traffic as he walks down the street…I will take his performance at the plate (and even in the field) every day and twice on Sundays. The morons in the media and screaming on talk radio who want him gone because he’s such a malcontent…what a bunch of mouthbreathing morons.
Interesting note…you all know who Manny’s agent is now, right? That’s right…Scott Boras. HOWEVER, I’m fairly certain that if the Sox exercise the $20 million option (which I really hope they do), Boras gets none of it…because he wasn’t Manny’s agent when the current contract was negotiated. Ironically enough, Manny’s former agent, Jeff Moorad, is now an owner of the Diamondbacks.
So where is Boras better off…if Manny is traded and/or his option is not exercised, or if Manny is ‘forced’ to play for the Sox in 2009? Have we ever heard Manny talking about his next contract as we have in the past few days?
I smell a rat.
If you read the Bradford column in today’s Boston Herald, it may enlighten you on the Manny option situation. Apparently Pedro was committed to an option year a year ahead of the deadline and Manny wants simalar treatment. When it didn’t happen, he got Boras. Apparently management had their fill of the malcontent a year ago and at that time collectively agreed that he would not get the Pedro treatment. It is their right, it is also their track record to put off such non-baseball stuff until after the season finishes. So in reality they are treating Manny like they have treated most every player recently. They probably would have considering giving him the $20 mil. after his work ethic last winter and good April and May, but then came the Youk and McCormick incidents. An interesting historical note is that bad boy Ted Williams, after being jeered game after game by a group in the LF stands, spat in their direction and was slapped with a fine of $5000 which was huge at that time ( his salary was $100,000). So he was fined 5% of his salary. Does anyone know what the fine was to Manny for knocking the 64 yr. old McCormick to the ground. If it was 5% of his salary, then it would be $1 mil, however I think it was something like $20,000 or .1% of his salary. It was also a black mark on Ted’s character as the media and the fans at that time expected their idols to act with class and were looked up to as role models.
1. The Youk incident was YOUK’S FAULT! Many players, evidently including Manny, were tired of his childish attitude when he made an out.
2. As far as I know, we haven’t seen any details on the McCormick incident. At face value, it does indeed look terrible…but we don’t have any idea what actually happened or what disciplinary steps the front office took.
Regarding the option; so I was right. Boras stands to gain if Manny is traded and/or the option isn’t exercised.
Manny met with Boras in Anaheim, then his attitude has greatly deteriorated since. I think not only is PSF correct, but why no one has brought that to the fans’ attention is completely part of the media’s collective storm of hate toward Manny which included IDENTICAL MANNY NEEDS TO BE GONE stories by each of the top Boston papers’ columnists–Buckley of the Herald and CHBF of the Globe. You got Jim Rice and Dennis Eckersley chiming in, you have Gammons and his theory of purposely missing games v. overmatched pitchers. Let’s pretend for just one second that all of that is true–the Manny tantrums, the Manny on-purpose K’s, the Manny sulks to get out of town—OK, now look at his numbers and really look at how many games this year he has contributed to Sox victories in major ways…Ok, it’s very clear. HE HELPS THE SOX WIN GAMES BY HIS PERFORMANCE…Rice, Eck, Gammons, Curly, etc never won 2 WS titles for the Sox…They all have a right to bitch and moan about Manny’s me-me attitude, but it’s his very existence as a phenomenal RBI, clutch hitter that has allowed the Sox to become as great as they have become. You go back to prior to his arrival and you have some of the worst Sox offensive teams in franchise history, including the famous Brunansky 13 homer leads team Sox. A couple of Sox division titles, but no real threat as a WS contender, usually first round knockouts by better A’s teams. Manny plays well enough defensively and plays the wall better than anybody despite some of his clownish more heralded mistakes. For all of his purported lack of hustle and lack of leadership, he’s proven to be every cent worth his 20 mil a year as he’s been thoroughly consistent throughout his contract with some truly monster seasons. This is a player that is too valuable, this isn’t a trade Nomar and everything is rosey situation. You trade Manny and you face a void that may never be replaced. What is really amazing through all of this is that Jason Varitek’s truly pathetic and dwindling offensive numbers over the past few seasons is simply forgiven as the media has no problem accepting him as a .210 hitter who “calls a great game.” I watched Kevin Cash throw out 2 runners in a game. When’s the last time Varitek done that? I love Jason and I appreciate everything he’s done, BUT HE’S DONE….He won’t make adjustments as a hitter, and that doesn’t seem to warrant anything from the media. Apparently the entire league loves Tek as he was a player’s pick All-Star in a truly crappy season for him. So here’s Manny, and here’s Tek. And the Sox need both, but one is killing the lineup, the other is saving what is left of a top heavy lineup that isn’t scoring much over the last 20 games. Everyone who wants Manny out of town forgets how sucky the Sox have been when Manny has had stretches in which he was not playing via injury. The Sox actually played ok without Ortiz, but they really suck without Manny. But again Ortiz is the guy who handles the media well and does all the right things to be beloved. Manny is a machine who maybe trashes the game of baseball by some of his actions, but is just too important to the Sox winning WS titles. Say all you want, he’s the link to 04 and 07 and 03 and 05….Epstein has wanted him gone since the day he took over the franchise. Well, I’ll continue to thank Dan Duquette for forcing Manny to be a Sox for the last 8 seasons. I will never say anything bad about Duquette. He brought in Tek and Lowe and he brought in Damon and he signed Wakefield and kept him when other execs, managers wanted him gone. Manny is just too important. Live with it.
*clapping*
Nice work, buddy.
On Duquette, if you look back his blockbuster and small moves all set up the Sox for years. All Epstein has done is fine-tuned things, but Theo shows still his
somewhat ability to not separate personal feelings and business moves. He has never liked Manny, and yet Manny has helped the team win 2 WS titles. He didn’t care for Lowe, he couldn’t wait to let go of Nixon, he played hard cold war ball with Pedro (and was right on him), and really he tried hard to knock off Duquette’s acquisitions 1 by 1. Except Varitek, the team’s LEADER, and Manny, and Wakefield, and Timlin are all still Duquette players. Even years removed and the Sox have vital veterans in the clubhouse who do make a difference–Wakes and Vtek and Timlin–and Epstein didn’t acquire any of them. John Henry understands Manny’s value, but Theo never has given Manny any reason than point to his salary in terms of thanking Manny for his production. 20 million maybe doesn’t deserve thanks, but this idea that he is kissing Manny’s ass is baloney. He has systematically helped the media blitz with his “leaks” to the media, including Fox’s Buck and the “you can say on the air that I’m open to trading Manny”…yeah, he’s been open to that since day 1. We all know it. He’ll get his wish and we’ll go back to the dark days soon. The 04 team was Duquette’s and the 07 team was still a strong part of Dan’s creations. And I have to wonder if Duquette got some of the carte blanche that Theo has received, would Dan have been just as successful with recent transactions. Theo has stood pat while all the other contenders are moving past them. Yes, Epstein has helped the minor league system and the Sox are going to push the youth till it hurts. But it’s the veterans who win you titles, not the youngsters.
Do a game by game analysis this year and I would bet that our MVP is Drew, followed clsely by Youk , Lowell, and Pedroia. I do believe that you are overrating the value of Manny. Who would I rather have at bat in a close, important game? I would feel most comfortable with Youk because he has the intensity and desire to win( like a Pete Rose). So what if he goes back to the dugout and throws stuff around, I applaude that because it shows that he really cares and is a team player. Manny tells him that such behavior is childish, then goes out to left, falls on a ball, turns it into a triple, and giggles about it. Other times he goes inside the scoreboard to take a leak and chat on his cell phone, childish?? Lowell is very clutch in such situations also – reminds me of Dwight Evans. Cater, can you make a list for us of the games that Manny was instrumental in in Sox wins this year? Perhaps after seeing what you have, I can also be an apologist for the Man-child’s behavior and selfish attitude. Why are the writers and NESN people all in step about how they feel? What would motivate them to be in collusion like that, or is it merely the fact that they are like intelligent jurors who are privy to more facts than we are and respond accordingly.
Let’s see we won last year by 2 games despite Manny taking a month off. What if we had lost – could we then blame it on his inability to play hurt like many others do? Didn’t we win the 2004 pennant on a stolen base and a fortunate GRB by Clark – or was it because ofManny. So many close races over the years and you are certain that the reason by far was the fact that we won becuse we had Manny. There was no Schilling, no Ortiz, Beckett, Papelbon, Lowell, Bellhorn, Lowe, Cabrera, Pedro, Muellar, Roberts, or Foulke? No, we won because of Manny? I don’t see things that simplistically. Do you come to Manny’s rescue and kiss his ass because you have an anti-authority thing against columnists, commentators, and other media people. Why do so many chatters hate all of the commentators and writers, doesn’t it seem strange and improbable that the whole lot of them are incompetent and biased and only the chatters who are at a distance have a better knowledge than they do. Does the ability to write well and speak fluently intimidate the mentality of chatters? I’m just curious why 90% of chatters think that 90% of writers and commentators are inept and predudiced. It doesn’t make sense to me from logical and statistical stance to me.
by Bud Poliquin
Tuesday July 29, 2008, 11:19 AM
Syracuse, N.Y. — “It was Gene Shue, the old basketball coach, who once told me that he’d start Charles Manson in his backcourt if Charles could help him win games. And while Gene said that with a smile, he was not joking.
Here’s the deal: When winning is important, and it is in the pros and in some places on the college and even high-school levels, morals aren’t. Ethics aren’t. Scruples aren’t.
Barry Bonds can hit, so you play him. Roger Clemens can pitch, so you play him. Latrell Sprewell can shoot, so you play him. Bobby Petrino can coach, so you hire him. And on and on and on. One’s misconduct becomes less and less important so long as his production remains more and more impressive. That is, simply, the law of the competitive jungle where a guy can get indicted for murder and aggravated assault one day, and become a Super Bowl MVP the next.”
He forget Vince Lombardi and Bill Bilichik
So it’s one side against the other, those with morals, ethics, and scruples. Half of those that listen to Gammons and read CHB have them while the other half don’t – a perfect formula for ratings and circulation. Now I see the light.
So you like Youks because he’s a “dirt dog” type player who cares? Puh-leeze. Now don’t get me wrong; I love Youk…but if you’d rather have him batting in a clutch situation instead of Manny, you are nuts.
Other point; Cater…I think you are wrong about Timlin…pretty sure he is a Theo acquisition.
Manny’s “misconduct” is basically minor things blown completely out of proportion by the press (I’ll give you the McCormick incident, even though we don’t really know anything about it). Don’t lump him in with mass murderers, thugs, and steroid abusers.
.
(by the way, I’m enjoying this healthy back and forth without the requisite “you’re an idiot/you’re a morons” thrown in there)
Just noticed in looking at Red Sox team stats that we have played 108 games and Manny has played in 65 of them or in 60% of the games.This is 9th among regulars on the team. Why has he been out of 43 games. We could certainly use Mr. Clutch, Cater’s MVP more often than we have seen him. In those games, despite playing so infrequently, Manny still leads the team in strikeouts.On slugging average, Drew and Youk lead Manny.
I’m trying to find a game by game recap to see if Drew is MVP or not (it seems that way to me). I also remember Lowell carrying the team for a week or two. Youk is having a great offensive year and is excellent on defense no matter where he plays, which might warrant that he is MVP. Then there is Pedroia, one competitor said to him recently ” We don’t know how to get you out”, His reply was” Neither does the League”, perhaps a bit conceited but true. So many good players on this team, perhaps the Angels are the best team in MLB but this is a deep team, not a one man show. If Manny stays which is probable and decides to call it a season, I’m sure that Coco, Moss, Carter, and Van Every will be adequate replacements. It will not be the end of the world for the Red Sox, after all, this happens every year.
I was in error on Timlin as he was signed in 2003 by Epstein. My apologies on that and to Mr. Theo. But my point is still that moves made prior to 2003 were very instrumental in helping the Sox win in 2004. and 07 still had a Duquette ring to it. Epstein has done many things to try to force the Manny situation including the waivers, the AROD possible trade, etc…Theo is still a very good GM and I don’t want to belabor comparing Duquette and Theo, but I think Theo has gotten lazy after the 2 WS wins. He believes he has to slowly ease out the old regime of veteran players by going within. It’s a noble effort that goes back to the 1970s when the Sox were mostly built within except for the pitching staff. But look at the Angels, they gave up Kotchman to try to win a WS this year. Manny is an attribute to the Sox chances, not a detriment as many are led to believe. I think many fans are already turning on Manny and they are fueled by the media frenzy. I am also a former media member and still work amongst the media in my job, so I have every reason to want to defend the media. But I’m not here because this witchhunt has gone on for a long time here. Pedro and Lowe and Nomar were all thrown under a bus for various actions as to almost a justification that they leave Boston. No one leaves the Red Sox without someone kicking them out the door—whether it be accompanied by a column or several stories that support management in their dealings with the “selfish” athletes. I like to be a fan first and a realist first.
Almost every story somewhere near the BOTTOM lists Manny’s hot stats, they don’t warrant going to the middle or top of stories because media scribes want to make the point that Manny is evil, is detrimental, is this horrible guy. Enough. He’s not a bright enough guy to be horrible. Carl Everett was the team’s best hitter (with Nomar) for a few seasons. He was a wingnut for sure, but he was also one of the few guys driving in runs his seasons here. Everett was a prime target of Curly’s from day 1. Pedro became a target during the contract squabblings. Nomar was punished beyond belief after playing his heart out for so many years on a team void of offense. It’s always the management gets a free pass ever since the team was sold and Epstein was promoted to GM.
As for morality. If that’s what this is about. Then bring back Grady Little. What did he do so wrong? He screwed up in one big game for the Sox. He was a player’s manager. He was crucified only after the fact on Pedro. We talked about him all the time that he was a country bumpkin who would eventually screw up in a big game situation. The media never broached the subject UNTIL AFTER THE PEDRO NOT BEING PULLED game. Bring back Orlando Cabrera, he only helped the team win the WS in 04 and paid back by being treated like he didn’t exist in the postseason following his heroic play. This game isn’t about morals, it’s about winning and losing. And the Sox best chance of winning is with Manny in the lineup, not being swept under a rug for his integrity.
Manny has played in 99 of the Sox games; 2nd only to Pedroia.
http://www.baseball-reference.com/teams/BOS/2008.shtml
While I may not be as eloquent as Mr. Cater has been, I think that Manny is worth every single penny he is being paid, and more so if they pick up his option. Torii Hunter, Andruw Jones, Vernon Wells and Ichiro are all paid $18MM/year, and I for one would not trade for any of them, while giving up the production of Manny. As a fan, I don’t give a damn about his clubhouse “antics” or outfield adventures, as long as he continues to mash. The only thing that concerns me is that if he decides not to show up at crunch time. That is where I believe Ortiz will keep him in line.
As the Angels, Rays, and Yankees are getting better, Manny should be least of this teams worries…..the middle relief is atrocious.
Very well said, ohio. And PSF thanks for correcting Crab on games played. I knew he was full of it on that games number.
Crab said: “If Manny stays which is probable and decides to call it a season, I’m sure that Coco, Moss, Carter, and Van Every will be adequate replacements. It will not be the end of the world for the Red Sox, after all, this happens every year.”
No, Coco and Moss are not adequate replacements, and yes every season Manny crushes his 25-35 homers and his 100-120 RBI and his over 400 OBP. Again, wanting Manny gone is a giant void for the Sox. There just isn’t anyone out there right now or trade worthy that can even remotely replace the best right-handed hitter I’ve ever seen in person.
Nomar was offered $60 mil. for 4 yrs. He insisted on $17 mil. Deal was put on hold and eventually died. It is a matter of opinion if the problem was the stinginess of Nomar or was it management. In some peoples’ opinions Nomar threw himself under the bus. Lowe was very inconsistent in his last year , he would either pitch a gem or get knocked out in the first three innings. He did pitch great in the postseason. Some sources said that he had a drinking problem which might explain his inconsistency. Perhaps he showed up to pitch hung over like David Wells and thought that he could get away with it. This behavior / attitude by him threw him under management’s bus.
A couple of days later, while the team was in Baltimore, Red Sox officials say Garciaparra told members of the team’s training staff and Terry Francona that he’d need to miss considerable time in August and September because he was still injured. One of the team’s trainers says Garciaparra also said his top priority was not playing, but getting healthy for November, when he’d be a free agent. Alarmed, Francona called Epstein to tell him about his conversations with Garciaparra. The Red Sox had already begun exploring potential moves, and this revelation only firmed Epstein’s resolve to deal with the situation. “After that conversation,” Henry said, “Theo, Larry and I met, and Theo said … that we needed somebody to play shortstop.”
The same thing can happen now. Manny can call it a year, sit out, and make his top priority getting ready for free agency.
Why would Manny “call it a year” now? How would that financially benefit him?
How would that help him get a bigger contract in 09? Manny meanwhile continues to hit while 5 guys at the end of the order struggle.
Andrew Zimbalist has a pretty good idea what the Sox are thinking. The Smith College sports economist notes that stats wonk Bill James, an adviser to the team on player personnel, says performance peaks at age 28. “The Red Sox have become very cautious about signing older players,” says Zimbalist. “They spent $8 million on Curt Schilling last November, and got burned when it turned out his shoulder injury would cost him the entire 2008 season.”
On the debit side, Zimbalist calls Ramirez a “loose cannon” and an adequate, injury-prone left fielder whose sentimental value isn’t in the same ballpark as, say, Big Papi’s. “Manny’s popularity with Boston fans is not what Derek Jeter’s is to New York’s,” he says. “The Fenway faithful have become more and more willing to say goodbye to him.”
The Sox have tried to bid farewell to Ramirez on numerous occasions. They put him on waivers after the 2003 season, then tried to trade him for Alex Rodriguez. Today, Zimbalist says, Ramirez would fetch about $13 million a year on the free-agent market—as much as $15 million if the Yankees entered the bidding. Rivera notwithstanding, over the last three seasons Ramirez has hit .467 versus the Bronx Bombers. Only Jimmie Foxx and Ted Williams have more career home runs against them.
Ramirez grew up in Washington Heights and would no doubt love to be a Yankee. But would the Yankees love to have him? With 37-year-old designated hitter Jason Giambi almost certain to be set free, Ramirez would make a solid replacement. Still, in 2009, the club will already have three brittle 35-or-older regulars whose best position is D.H.: Hideki Matsui, Johnny Damon, and Jorge Posada. If Ramirez were to rotate with Damon in left, an awful lot of salary would be left on the bench.
On top of that, Ramirez’s new agent is the dreaded Scott Boras. Last year Boras counseled Rodriguez to opt out of the final three years of a 10-year, $252 million contract with the Yanks. When no other team even made an offer, A-Rod hired a managing director of Goldman Sachs to negotiate a deal with New York. The team had refused to speak with Rodriguez if Boras were involved.
“For years, the Red Sox have enabled Manny’s most outlandish behavior,” says a rival agent. This time around, the front office seems unwilling to take his crap.
Why would Manny “call it a year” now? How would that financially benefit him?
How would that help him get a bigger contract in 09? Manny meanwhile continues to hit while 5 guys at the end of the order struggle.
Do you not remember Manny with icepack on both knees for his tendinitis and missing two games last week? His knees need a few weeks off at least in his opinion. The benefit to him is this, Boras is steering him to become a free agent this winter and he hopes to get a 4 yr. 100 mil. deal. Like Nomar, his top priority is to show all bidders that he is healthy and his knees are fine. My bet is that he shuts it down until September , displays a week of torrid hitting, then leaves the team early to visit Pedro under the Mago tree.
With all due respect, Zimbalist is a sports economist, and he leaves out the important intangible that Manny has, which is he produces, and produces, and produces, and he hits and he hits and he hits and drives in runs and he doesn’t go into 3-month fogs like Drew did last year, Varitek does often, Millar did while here, etc….The Sox offense is lost when Manny isn’t in it. You see it every time Manny is out of the lineup. I’ve never seen a player more important to the overall success of a team’s lineup than Manny Ramirez, LF, Boston Red Sox.
Tendonitis at his age is normal. It’s also compounded by the very tough schedule that a MLB player goes through each and every season. I know this from just playing 1 game a week. You want to take for granted the grind players go through just to make it through a 162-game schedule. If he took a week off to re-generate himself and it led to a hot streak upon his return and then he further played all the games in the postseason, and the team won another WS title, then sing another tune. His future value isn’t better by taking games off, it only proves to show owners/gms that he’s had some wear and tear. For Varitek, the job has caught up to him. For Manny, he mostly continues to bash even in the dog days of late July. Fans should be ashamed of themselves for making the assumption the team is better off without him. It’s a terrible mistake in judgment.